Victims of Tribal Campaign

‘We’re victims of tribal campaign’
And the fault squarely rests with the politicians

By Alex Atuhaire
Aug 20, 2004

Mr. Charles Peter Mayiga is the minister in charge of Lukiiko, Information and Cabinet Affairs in the Buganda Kingdom. Alex B. Atuhaire and Victor Karamagi spoke to him on Wednesday in the wake of the publication of the findings of The Monitor-sponsored opinion poll showing that the majority of Ugandans do not want federalism, a system of government largely demanded by Buganda.

Excerpts: -

Only 33.5 percent, according to this opinion poll, want federalism. Why do you think the country should adopt the system?
There is a significant percentage of the citizens who want the system to start with. And certainly the region I speak for - Buganda - has said a resounding yes in favour of federalism.

Since these are questions of governance and the people have indicated how they want to be governed, then my answer is that those who want to be governed under that system should be governed under it.

Does the little national support for federalism mean that you have been bad marketers of the system?
No, we have marketed the system well and if the population had a chance or were allowed to exercise their minds independently, I have no doubt that the percentage would be much bigger than 33.5.

We all know what Benjamin Odoki [through the Constitutional Commission] found out throughout the country just ten years ago: that 65 percent of Ugandans wanted federalism.

Of course, what has happened since the findings of Benjamin Odoki has been a systematic campaign by those in power who do not want to share responsibilities and resources. They have greatly tribalised the issue.
But if people were exercising their minds independently, I have no doubt that the [favourable] percentage would be much higher than this.

What can you specifically point to that has changed since Odoki compiled his report?
You see government has intensified this process of decentralisation. They have campaigned deeply for decentralisation. And a number of people in the districts think decentralisation is synonymous with federalism. Many people do not realise that decentralisation is delegated power, and that federalism is shared power; and because they have tested the few benefits that decentralisation has brought, many of them fail to realise that there would be bigger benefits with federalism. So I would call that half-hearted satisfaction, purely because of politics.

People who oppose federalism and those who support it have given their reasons. First, react to people who oppose - those who say that federo will bring imbalance in development because, supposedly, Buganda has an obvious advantage.

That is not true. Federalism will ensure that each region takes a fair portion of the wealth it generates. There is a misconception in this country that Buganda is the only basket for the country; probably [because] it is bigger than other areas. But no other area is too poor to the extent that if you allow them a portion of what they produce, they will starve. If anything, federalism will bring fairer distribution of resources.

How about the concern that federalism will lead to tribalism and disunity?
We do not want to be proponents of lopsided nationalism or even patriotism. It is a fact that this country is made up of different nationalities - call it tribes. For you and I to be friends does not need us to first forget where we come from. It is a fact of life that I come from some region, it is a fact that you come from somewhere and the moment we accept that, we are going to build a very united country paying due respect to our cultural [differences]. So the argument that federalism causes disunity is lopsided nationalism.

And the insecurity concern?
I do not know how that would happen. First of all, to the contrary, I would look at the war in the north. Government has been arguing for long that some leaders in the north have been supporting the war. If the people in the north had a bigger stake in their region in a federal arrangement, am very sure they would be the first people to come out with solutions to end the war. So federalism cannot foment insecurity in my opinion.

Federalism supporters say regions will develop using their own resources. Do you agree?
I use the example of West Nile. West Nile generates billions of shillings in revenue to the central government. But up now, 50 years after we got the dam in Jinja, West Nile does not have hydroelectric power. If they were allowed a portion of revenue from the tobacco, I have no doubt in my mind that they would have opted for electric power as one of their priorities.

So the resources we generate can certainly be used to develop the regions. West Nile is just one example. Look at Bugisu. How much of the money from Arabica coffee goes back to Bugisu? If they were given a chance to take a percentage of that, they would be more developed than they are today because they know their priorities better than anybody else.

Would federalism improve democracy in the country as some of your supporters say?
That is true. Today if you want to become any sort of public officer of whichever level, you will run to Kampala because that is where people who have power stay.

If you were to devolve power meaningfully, I would stay in Kigezi, in Busoga and I would be the big shot in my own area and in that way there would be fewer scrambles for power. Scramble for power has been the biggest source of dictatorships in this country.

If we hade a federal state, we would perform better on the political front and we would have more time to dedicate to development issues. Democracy and development go hand in hand.

You have been in talks with government, how far have you gone?
Well the talks have not come to a conclusion yet. Much of what is published in the press is imagined. And we have made an undertaking not to disclose the details we have covered simply because they keep on changing. We do not want to commit ourselves to an issue, which we do not know has come to an end. We want to come out with a definite statement at the end. We shall be able to tell the public whether we have failed or succeeded. In my view, the discussions are going on fairly well.

The two sides have come out to trade insults. President Museveni last week said you people are spreading rumours. Well, at times politics is at play. But the negotiations are going very well.

According to this opinion poll, half the country is worried that we are headed in a wrong direction. What is your reaction?
The Constitution is very clear on how to change government in this country. The only problem is that the constitutional provisions stipulating this are not being adhered to strictly. That is what is creating such impressions. If we just do what the Constitution says, there would be no cause for alarm.

Secondly, the so-called roadmap to the transition should be done openly. If that were done, this negative feeling would be eroded.

Government is going to hold a referendum on several issues next year, what do you think about that?
When you look at the world today, [on] the concepts like globalisation and liberalisation, you just cannot run away from certain aspects of governance like [political] pluralism. I just do not see how government is going to manage to avoid pluralism.

Since government has said that they are going to pluralism, probably they should just open up space to everybody and they compete. I see no use of holding an expensive referendum when both [government and the opposition] are agreed to change of the system.

What about contentious issues like the third term and federo?
But the third term is about constitutional amendments and the Constitution is very clear on how you amend it. You see you can amend the Constitution but you should follow the procedure laid down. Any lawyer should be able to explain that to the government.

Your last word on the results of this opinion poll?
I know that many Ugandans are seeking a federal form of government that has been tested more than once and the population has spoken. I know that at some stage in the foreseeable future, we shall have a federal form of government.

On the other issues of constitutionalism and good governance, I think the leadership of this country owes it to their own legacy, their own generation and to their children and grandchildren to do the right thing that will ensure that the country moves on peacefully. One person or one group of persons cannot exhaustively solve problems countries face.

Every generation has its own challenges it faces and it will settle them as they arise.

‘Mengo must consider national interest’
Crossfire: With Alex Atuhaire & Victor Karamagi
Aug 25 - 30, 2004

ALEX B. ATUHAIRE & VICTOR KARAMAGI speak to Buganda Kingdom spokesman, Charles Peter Mayiga and Movement Spokesman, Ofwono Opondo, two men known never to mince words, about the implications of the fall-out between Buganda and the Central Government, over federalism.

Can President Museveni do without Mengo?
Mayiga: Well, I cannot purport to be the President's spokesman and the choice of his allies is purely his. What I know and what we are prepared to do is stick to what the region called Buganda wants. Whether or not he can do without us can be best answered by him.

Mengo should stop blackmail and intimidation: Ofwono Opondo

Museveni obliged to respect Buganda's wishes: Charles Peter Mayiga

Opondo: Every President in Uganda is elected by universal adult suffrage. The President can do without Mengo but in terms of constituent development; the President would need the population of the majority of voters in Uganda. And it's not only the President who needs Mengo; Mengo also needs the President to advance any legitimate interests they may have.

What are the implications of the President annoying the Kabaka?

Mayiga: The population of Buganda is solidly behind the Kabaka and I know that in the past elections, the general view was that Museveni was working closely with the Kabaka. If it emerges that he is not interested in doing what the people for whom the Kabaka is custodian want, then there could be dramatic changes in his fortunes.

Opondo: I am not aware that the President has annoyed the Kabaka or that the Kabaka is annoyed. There are some people around the Kabaka who are trying to show that he is annoyed with the President. But I am sure there is a line of communication between the Kabaka and President. I am sure they talk on phone one on one. So, however much some people try to kill their relationship, they will not succeed because all these issues are well explained to the Kabaka.

The President says Mengo gathers people without constituencies and they propagate wrong positions. Is he bashing the un-elected Mengo leadership?

Mayiga: The issue of un-elected leadership in Mengo is a tired line. The President himself was a President for 10 years without being elected but he was organizing things for the country, as far as we know. Secondly, the Kabaka has a constituency and I don't know whether anybody doubts this. We in Mengo represent the Kabaka and we directly relate to the constituency that the Kabaka enjoys. So that line of un-elected representatives is a tired one. In any case we shall hold elections when the time comes. That is why the issue of the Lukiiko is very crucial.

Opondo: He is. In fact in the latest three different meetings, the President was categorical that Mengo is swung to side with un-elected people. And according to the Constitution, there is no way you can by-pass elected people - the LCs and MPs. Those are the people who have political powers.

Unfortunately, the people who are purporting to talk for Buganda; people like Joyce Ssebugwawo, Apollo Makubuya and Peter Mayiga are not elected. They cannot talk oblivious of what elected people are saying. There is no way elected people can be subjected to decisions of un-elected people. There is no way people at Mengo will access public funds at Mengo or at the regional tier, without being subjected to public scrutiny. So the President is putting the Mengo people into the spotlight. In fact he is telling them, go back and negotiate with elected people.

Is Mengo seeking political power? How do you assess Mengo's grass root support strength?

Mayiga: Mengo is always seeking political power when you talk of federalism. But that power shall not be exercised by the Kabaka directly. He will be apolitical. The Katikkiro and the team he works with are the ones who are going to be exercising those political powers. Federalism is about sharing power, political power inclusive. But people are trying to confuse it with the Kabaka being involved in politics. Those are two different things. We have leadership structures all the way to the village level. We have county chiefs, Gombolola chiefs, and the traditional ones. We have the Miluka chiefs. We are sure of what we are talking about.

Opondo: Mengo is looking for political power. But there is no short cut. Either the Mengo officials should stand for elections if they want to assess their political strength or they should sponsor people for elections right from LC1 up to presidency. Mengo can choose to do that in every election to assess the popularity of their establishment. There is no other short cut except through negotiation and that brings them before elected institutions, Parliament, the executive and Local Councils.

Can the opposition take advantage of the collapse of the talks to gain extra mileage?

Mayiga: Our interests are permanent. We prefer to have permanent friends but our interests are more permanent. I will answer it like that because a direct answer can only come from people in the opposition.

Opondo: They cannot. For example, DP has been the main opponent of the Kingdom of Buganda since 1954. Catholics formed DP on the basis of opposition to the Mengo establishment. That's why Mengo did not support Ben Kiwanuka and DP in 1960s. DP has never reflected in their Manifesto or Constitution that they support federalism. They only talk at press conferences. UPC definitely cannot gain ground from that and it would be worse if FDC allied with UPC and try to champion the interests of Mengo. I think the people would see through that.

According to the latest Monitor opinion poll, the majority of the country is opposed to Federo. Could this explain latest hardened government position?

Mayiga: We are not asking [the system for] the entire country. We speak for Buganda. If anyone is saying he is democratic, he should respect that view. The whole talk about peasants is about respecting their wish, and their wish is federalism. The President is obliged to respect the wishes of the people of Buganda.

Opondo: Government position has not changed since 1966. But definitely there is more enlightenment now. When they were talking about the Odoki Commission they were only talking about Buganda. They were not talking about the whole country. I don't think Federo and monarchism are popular things in the whole country.

What is the way forward?

Mayiga: The Buganda question has been around the formation of a country known as Uganda for a very long time. We are not in a hurry to solve it if we do not have willing partners. What I know is that it not based upon political opportunism. It is based upon political will and the general wishes of the people concerned. So if today the political leadership does not think there is need to solve this question, that is entirely up to them but for us, the cry will go on until we attain what we know to be in the people's interests.
We do think that amidst these negotiations, someone tries to undercut one of the sides by soliciting views, which he knows are going to push his line. We believe that these talks can be salvaged if we are moving in a principled way and for as long as they are based on the aspirations of the people. So there is still hope if I were asked.

Opondo: Mengo should sober up. They should put Mengo's interests in a broader basket of the national perspective. They should know that they could get whatever they want through negotiation other than black mail and intimidation.

Since they are not directly represented in Parliament, the presidency and local councils, they can always work by negotiating with different arms of government. Even if they collect hooligans to shout at people in the Lukiiko and at CBS radio's Mambo Bado, that one cannot bring for them victory. For example they have been intimidating MPs that they will de-campaign them. The way forward for them is to stick to civilized methods of negotiation.